I can’t help you with Mr. Kibbe’s info. But did want to say that if you have an interest in colour analysis – all of these Makeup Model articles, at least those published before April 10/09 approx, were written before I became a colour analyst myself. Though this info isn’t wrong, it’s not completely right…or I would express these ideas differently today. I leave these articles here because so many communicate here.
The real deal is at 12blueprints.com

MAC’s Cubic is a close cousin, and much cheaper. They have several warm, slightly dirty pinks that would probably work well for warm or soft autumns.

I thought I’d pop on over to some of the autumn threads, seeing as though I’m still in the “experimenting” stage of color analysis. Re: Autumns and red hair — My natural hair color is a medium warm brown but I color it auburn. Most drugstore reds — the deeper ones especially — lean a little cool, mahogany/burgundy and those shades made my skin look a little sallow. Last summer I threw caution to the wind and colored my hair with a (temporary) coppery red and something clicked. My eyes, which I never though of as anything but basic brown, looked warmer, more golden, and my skin looked much brighter. I also lost whatever ability I had to wear cool colors, especially in makeup. I know the hair is covered with a cap during analysis, but you don’t go about your day with your hair covered, and a drastic shift definitely effects how you look in certain colors. I know I can’t make myself a certain season by a hair color change alone, but I think erased any doubt that I am more warm than cool.

The elimination process is frustrating, to say the least. I’m dark, but not really; I’m contrasty and clear, but not exactly…

(I did find the spring “starburst” pattern in my eye, but it’s hard to see unless I’m looking directly into the light. That’s a start.)

Finding discontinued colour can be hard. Do you know the company Three Custom Colour? They will blend you anything and the match is exact. May cost a bit more but for a beloved colour, it can be worth it.
Have you tried contacting EL Customer Service? Or asking big Dept. stores to call their various branches and see if anyone has it? I don’t know that colour but it reminds me of the colours I see a lot of at the Lancome counter? Have you tried matching it in other companies (I know how unbelievably hard that can be). I’ll look at the colour if it’s still there next time I shop (which is often) but the EL saleswoman here tells me they’re discontinuing a pile of lipstick and other products. I’ll let you know if I find anything.

I wrote this article before my Colour Analyst training with the Sci\ART company. Since then, I don’t use the “Warm Autumn” classification anymore. I would probably say “True Autumn”. Having said that, though the methods for arriving at the person’s season are different in the 2 systems, the palettes you result with are much the same. I think the makeup recommended in this article is still pretty close. Maybe others can help with more recommendations.

Something about my emails seems to be screwy. Others have said the same. I’ll have to fix that. I don’t even know what that error message means. The address christine@agreenertea.com should always work, it’s external to the blog software. Just don’t go into it from the Contact page, do it in your separate email program.

The Sci\ART process sounds pretty similar to mine. It’s $180 CDN, so about the same. It takes 2-3 hours. The makeup can be done that day, though if I ever have a choice, I’d prefer not to, or not in an involved way. First, the PCA process is draining. Second, the person needs a week or a month to absorb the experience and begin working with their new colours. Still, if the person had travelled some distance, I’d certainly do the makeup then.
I’m not certain about “red drapes” . That might be out of context. The drapes are used in a certain order, there are maybe 12 or 15 sets used to make the determination, of which the red drapes are 4 of the 15. There are 12 seasons, indeed. The Colours Book is just as she said, but I’ll tell you, it is very well thought out from a usability perspective.

You know, I’ve only analyzed 20-25. I have no concerns that I won’t be able to find the season. If I have a concern, it’s that I will make a pre-judgement about the season. I have to trust the drapes to show me. As a relative newbie, I’m probably more impartial than a very experienced person might be. I dont’ know. On the other hand, someone with experience might have a different sort of confidence. Learning a process is a funny thing, different for everyone. Still, by the time I’d done 7 or 8, I knew I could do this. I might have taken longer back then, but I knew what I needed to see. Maybe she’s faster than I am and doesn’t do makeup?

Not sure exactly where Lora lives, or how portable she is. I do believe she has some drapes, but I dont’ know if the Sci\ART drapes are particular from those of other companies. You could ask her, she’s very easy to talk to, very real-world based.

I tried sending you a private email about this matter, but it was returned to me because “relay access denied.”

I spoke to the Sci\Art consultant in NYC yesterday and I have some concerns. She told me the process lasts between 1-1.5 hours and costs $150. It consists of:
red drapes (I think I understood that correctly…)
determination of season (one of the 4 seasons)
determination of specific season (one of 12)
color book with my 65 colors

She has only analyzed 17 people.

I was expecting a 3 hour session with a hair and makeup option. I’m hesitant to proceed any further with her. What’s your take on this?

I wish you lived closer! Do you know where Lora Alexander is based? I know she doesn’t follow the Sci\Art system, but she’s great with color.

Thanks in advance for your reply.

I’m excited to hear that you are seeking an appointment with a color consultant and look forward to your results.

I think you are right that my coloring must in some ways be stronger and that is the reason you cannot wear Laura Geller’s lip color in Russet successfully and I can.

Hi Christine,
Excellent point about seeing yourself in makeup colors. There can absolutely be a huge gap between subjectivity and objectivity here, as was the case with you.
I got the name of a Sci/Art consultant in NYC from their web site. I got an endlessly ringing phone when I called her yesterday, but I’ll try again. Yes, I love color. David Kibbe analyzed me as a Vivid Autumn, but that was in the early 90′s. It would be fun to get draped again.

I can speculate about season but it wouldn’t be of much use to you. You might be Soft Autumn. You might equally be a Spring of some sort. Skin is a funny thing in its reaction to colour. It is affected by complements and after-images, by reflected colours, by its own thickness, by tendencies to have yellow casts, by its ability to be cleared by certain colours.

If I’ve learned one thing, it’s that nobody can predict what colour skin really is or what it will do in the presence of colour till it’s analyzed in various shades. And you know, as you read this site, that eye and hair colour don’t influence me even a little bit. I’ve seen Summers with warm brown hair and red hair. I know Dark Autumns with soft, fluffy gray hair. I know Springs with ash brown hair.

The other thing that throws a wrench into season prediction is that I’m never sure if women like makeup because it really does look good or if it’s just what they’re used to seeing themselves in, as I did. You love colour – you would find the PCA process fascinating. Do you know how to locate an analyst? That’s what you really need.

I purchased MAC Entice Lipgloss….had to return it. It was extremely weak and pale on me. I also looked at BB Tawny blush today and it is too soft and muted and not warm enough for me.

I’ve also tried Bobbi Brown Carnation lipstick, which is a peach with a tiny drop of pink added. It works, applied with a light hand.

As for blush, Bobbi Brown Tawny was a winner, also applied lightly.

Christine, in your earlier post, you said, “I wonder if you’re not an Autumn too.” What other season did you think I might be? As a reminder, my skin is pale ivory (no sallowness at all). I wear Prescriptives Virtual Skin Real Cream, Bobbi Brown Tinted Moisturizer Extra Light Tint, MAC NC 15. My eyes are medium green-brown (yellow-gold and orange are visible with a magnifying mirror). My childhood hair was medium copper reddish brown.

Monty,
Thanks for your tests for wearing black. Well, I look really good with camel or coffee and black. Mahogany with black might be a little dark–I’m not sure. Tomato red with black is too strong. Soft white and ivory with black is too much contrast. Mustard and black is OK, as is terracotta and black (neither of these are as good as camel/coffee with black because the contrast with mustard/black and terracotta/black is borderline too strong; both would look better with dark brown instead of black). Salmon pink and black is too strong. Looking good in camel and black makes me a deep?

I like the Diana Rigg photos you posted.

I just want to clarify that Kibbe doesn’t analyse stature, bone structure, etc., to put someone in a Season. He uses it in conjunction with clothing lines (silhouette), jewelry, etc. To my knowledge, he also worked with Carole Jackson in defining CMB and was a contributor to Jackson’s book, “Color For Men”. He writes that having your colors done has absolutely nothing to do with anything other than determining what your skin tone is and which palette of colors to work with to enhance it.

With that said, he does recommend his various “image identities” to use and combine “their colors” in certain ways in his system based on the concept of Yin and Yang. An example would be someone who is tall with an angular sharp edged face (Yang) — he advies them to think “head-to-toe” with their color schemes and suggests that the deepest colors that complement their coloring is best. And, if they use the pastel shades in their individual palette, to use them by creating an entire ensemble (for a more dramatic look). He doesn’t advise these types of women to use multicolor splashes and a mix ‘n match approach to color as he would advise someone who is Natural in his system (Soft Yang). Nevertheless, it’s an interesting system.

Anyway, just wanted to clear up Kibbe’s take on color as discussed in his 1987 book.

I definitely agree with what you wrote regarding Bernice Kentner. A truly remarkable, talented lady.

In no particular order, here are some things that floated through my head as I read,

- Caroline, I’m beginning to wonder if you’re not an Autumn too. Plastique is certainly frosted and I understand what you mean by corpse-like. I used to mix it with MAC Jubilee back when I saw myself as Autumn. Being wrong about me is one of the best things that could have happened to me, though I admit it caused me some embarrassment.

Since I am limited in my makeup selection, I’ll stay with Clinique. Some True Autumn colours to consider would be Golden Brandy, Sugared Grapefruit, Crushed Grape, Spiced Apple, Creamy Nude. They don’t have the best selection for this season.

I’m not a fan of lips that are skin-colour or paler, especially in older faces where the lips are fading into the skin enough without using makeup that does the same thing. Ambrosia might be good too. I find many True Autumn women, who don’t really know what their youngest skin looks like in right colours, are often using colours that are too pale and faded because they feel safer. If hair colour is off, it will detract from the skin hugely. And then if hair and clothes are both in colours that age and detract, makeup doesn’t really stand a chance of a true assessment.

With the more colored makeup that works for darker seasons and livens older faces, sheer textures really are terrific if you can wear the creamy slippy application. It doesn’t feel like too much of a statement but achieves feature definition.

- I don’t know Kibbe’s work but it sounds fascinating. Re: the actress in the links …. until that woman is draped with her hair hidden, I myself haven’t got a clue what season she is. And if I believe hair colour, eye colour, and eye patterns are not precise enough, I just can’t use stature, bone structure, etc. All those variables may have some application and will appear in the averages, but it goes wrong too. She could be a True Winter for all I know.

In a Winter, blacks can clear a yellow cast from the skin. Who knows what she looks like without makeup and lights? Often, Autumns have a yellowish look too where every freckle pops out; in their colours, which may be schoolbus-yellow, the freckles blend away, the yellow tone clears, and the skin appears to tighten and become poreless. Ya gotta look at un-made-up skin in a variety of colours. Really.

- I’m not a follower of the CMB system of Dominants and Secondaries. The system is clever and may be one of the best for identifying colouring with a book. It will indeed get a lot of people right.

- having lunch with Bernice is one of my dreams in life. I tell you, I have such respect for that woman. She figured out A TON of stuff long before anyone else. I read and re-read her material. I don’t necessarily agree with everything but the world would be just too dull if we all agreed all the time. She is just brilliant. Yes, OK, the books have some typos and are dated and so on, but there is so much great information there. She had insight for this stuff like few others I know.

- Monty, you’re a woman who knows and loves colour! Yes, the Sci\ART swatches are fabulously well thought-out. A big dot of lasting strong colour. Easy to carry, easy to compare, just really good. $US70 to never make a clothing or makeup mistake again? Expensive? I think not.

Great conversation.

http://tinyurl.com/nmrur4

http://www.tomsoter.com/files/images/avengers2.jpg

However, I think you should find a test to figure out if your are Deep or Warm. Maybe you are Deep, and then Warm is a secondary characteristic.?

Deeps apparently can wear black on its own or with the other colors in your deep and warm palette as per Color Me Confidant. They write to add tomato red or mahogany to your black. Can you do that? Or camel or coffee with black for a softer look. Soft white or ivory with black. ????

For Warm & Soft they say that black is not in your palette. They say for best reults conbine black with one of the warm and soft tones from your palette. Mustard, terracotta, or salmon pink. Does this look better?

Good point about the black Avenger outfits looking good on Diana Rigg. That would make her a Deep Autumn. But she only wore the black jumpsuit in the black and white episodes. I wonder if she would look as good in black in color, where her reddish brown hair color and true skin tone is apparent. I need to look at color Emma Peel photos to see if she’s wearing black in any of them. I think her dominant characteristic is warm, right? Or is it deep?

I’m asking this because I look so much like her, and I don’t want to post pictures of myself on the internet (and I don’t know how to anyway). David Kibbe said I was a Vivid Autumn, i.e, deep. (His Warm Autumn is Fiery Autumn.) JoAnne Richmond said I was a Warm Autumn. I can’t tell if I suit the deepest colors, like black-brown or the warmest colors like pumpkin and mustard. I’m an awful judge of myself. I stick to the classic Autumn colors as mentioned in my earlier post, but I’d like to know if I’d look good expanding my wardrobe in either the deep or warm direction.

So, what do others think? Christine? Is Diana Rigg, as Emma Peel, a Deep Autumn or a Warm Autumn? Thanks!